Money 3.0: Chad Cascarilla from Paxos

This episode of Money 3.0 takes a deep dive into the role of stablecoins and other asset-backed stores of value. 

To discuss this topic Abra’s founder and CEO Bill Barhydt is joined by Paxos co-founder and CEO, Chad Cascarilla.

Check out a transcript of the episode below or listen to the show here:

Bill:
Hey everyone. Bill Barhydt here. Welcome to another exciting episode of Abra’s Money 3.0. Joining me in studio today is Chad Cascarilla, the CEO of itBit, you may know them as Paxos. So Chad, welcome to Money 3.0.

Chad:
Great being here. Thanks a lot for having me on Bill.

Bill:
Hey, so let’s get right into it. Interesting 2019, I think one of the key stories was what’s going on with Libra and in our world that kind of sounds like a stablecoin. Why are stablecoins now so in, so du jour, so exciting? What’s the reality here? I mean, why do they matter?

Chad:
Yeah, well I think there’s a couple of reasons why it matters. The first is, I know we’re all in the crypto space, so people have a lot of different viewpoints on this and what exactly is money. But at the end of the day, the US dollar is really kind of money because everyone’s using that as their unit of account. Everything in your books is denominated in dollars, generally. Then as a means of payment, it’s on like 80 percent of transactions, or 60 percent of transactions, depending on how you calculate it, are in dollars.

Chad:
So dollars are what people are using, but dollars only, in a digital basis, go through a commercial bank. So you’re going to a commercial bank, that means you’re moving nine to five, five days a week. If you take money and you put it into a dollars and you put it onto a blockchain, you now have dollars that can move 24 hours a day, seven days a week, nearly instantaneously. And they’re programmable. So you’re really taking money and upgrading it from really COBOL mainframes, run through the banks, and onto a blockchain ledger that anybody can access.

Chad:
So that’s why it’s really important. If you look at where this has started, it’s in the crypto space because crypto assets are moving 24 seven, instantaneously, but waiting for wires to move, and a lot of activities cross border will take days. It’s completely anachronistic. So the demand for blockchain money has actually, in some ways, maybe ironically, been driven by the crypto world. I think that’s where you saw this clear need, that’s where there’s five and a half-billion dollars of tokenized dollars now.

Chad:
What Libra did, as you pointed out, is it really started to make the conversation about being able to put money onto a blockchain because you could then start to do, not just crypto transactions, which is how it’s primarily used now, but begin to do means of payments for remittances, for general payments, for FX trading. Money is the foundational asset to move, upgrading money allows you to upgrade everything.

Bill:
Let’s unpack that for a second. Right? So the history of crypto-based stablecoins, as you referred to them, in my mind, really starts with Tether, right? So the growth of … and there may be some other examples, but that’s the one that really took off first, as far as I’m aware. So really at the end of the day, Tether, to me, was almost a regulatory arbitrage opportunity for exchanges that were operating outside the US that didn’t have access to the banking system, weren’t able to process, let’s say wires coming in.

Bill:
They basically created this synthetic dollar backed by, in theory dollars in a bank account, that allowed traders to get quick access to dollar Bitcoin, dollar Ethereum, trading pairs without having to deal with all of the regulatory aspects or compliance aspects of trying to “get a bank account,” which in our shared world means can my exchange process incoming bank wires, which generally a lot of these offshore changes can not or could not. So now, and since then it’s gotten this network effect where it seems to be the front runner. So why are stable coins going to be adopted for other reasons beyond this initial kind of regulatory arbitrage issue of I can’t deposit money into my exchange account, and where are they going from here?

Chad:
Yeah. Well I agree that clearly Tether is benefiting from a regulatory arbitrage, and that’s why the New York attorney general, or at least part of the reason why they’re going after them, are they assets actually backing them? Is it really a stable coin? It’s not really a stable coin because it’s not really backed one for one with US dollars. I mean they told us that. But nonetheless, I think what really it highlights, is there such a demand for dollars on a blockchain that it doesn’t even matter if it’s actually fully backed, if it’s really trustworthy, people just need it. So they really led the way, they solved a clear need in the crypto markets.

Chad:
But I also think at the end of the day, that’s as good as it’s going to get for Tether because no institution is going to use it. As the banking system upgrades to be on open ledgers, no one’s going to be using Tether for that because it’s not built in a way that creates trust, that creates institutional adoption. That’s what you’re going to need in order to really change the financial system. I think that’s why we’re all in crypto, how do you do something really big, not just how do you solve a problem that’s both niche and timed eliminated? Right? How are you going to solve something that’s big and that can really change things on a long timescale?

Bill:
By the way, just to interrupt. So you mentioned that — I’m in banking, I’m attending all these conferences, all these crazy crypto people come to me, everybody’s talking about Libra stablecoins. Why should I care? Like how is this going to affect me, Mr. Bank?

Chad:
Well, it’s going to affect everybody in a different way. So we’ll talk about what is the general benefits and then we can talk about, “Hey, what does it do for bank versus a consumer versus some institution versus a business?” So putting money on a blockchain means that you now get the benefits of a blockchain. So it depends on exactly how that blockchain is constructed. But let’s say some of the common benefits.

Chad:
First of all in now is operating 24/7, banks don’t operate 24/7, it’s nine to five. It’s moving money instantaneously. Certainly, in the need for cross border movements, you’re generally talking about multiple days. If you’re talking about ACH payments, which is just in the US, that’s still taking a day and they’re revocables for 30 to 60 days depending on exactly what you’re doing. So you have a non-revocable instantaneous movement of an asset and you can actually do it much cheaper. So the cost to move something on Ethereum is way cheaper than moving a cross border wire. What does it, 15 cents or something on Ethereum? Or 10? Depending on whatever it is, the day, and the price versus spending like $25-50 for a cross border wire.

Chad:
Then the last thing is it’s programmable. So commercial bank money isn’t really programmable. It’s sitting in a bank. It can be moved, but it’s rather a simple ledger movements, you can’t do anything advanced, whereas you have cash on a blockchain, you can now start to be very programmatic about it. That’s a huge complete upgrade in what you’re getting. Then the last component is access. In order to be able to access money in a bank, you’ve got to have a bank account. For most people that doesn’t really seem like a negating factor, but in fact, there are 50 million people in the US that are unbanked. There are billions of people around the world that are unbanked. You don’t need a bank account in order to be able to have money on a blockchain, you just have to have a wallet, which means you just need to have a smartphone, which is almost everybody now.

Chad:
So it’s actually harder to get a bank account than it is to have a smartphone. So all you need is an internet access to now have access to a bank account or effectively bank account. That’s a huge difference. Now, some of those benefits aren’t necessarily good for banks. Some of them could be, it just depends on … you now have a new playing field. Can you adjust and adapt to the new playing field? Or do you want to still play the old game? I don’t think the old game is going to work anymore because you have something new and disruptive that’s happened. We see that analogously in many other industries, telecom, media, energy, you look at it, things change. You need to be able to adapt. This is a much better technology, it’s creating an open network and you got to be able to adapt to it.

Bill:
Yep. so my impression of banks is that they don’t do anything that governments and compliance regulators don’t tell them they’re allowed to do. So it sounds like it may very well be that these things get adopted first, kind of outside of the traditional banking system, somewhere in between, whether it’s money service businesses, the Libra concept, other money transfer remittance payments companies, and then make their way into maybe into traditional banks longterm. Right? I mean, time will tell. Okay. So let’s segue that into what you guys are doing. Talk about your products in the space, and where you guys are at with those products now.

Chad:
Yeah, so I’ll tell you little about Paxos because it really informs what our products are. So we spent a long time creating a trust company in the State of New York. We are the first crypto firm to get a trust company in New York… So that was really important to us because our whole goal is to create the infrastructure that others can build on. So the trust company gives us access to, I’d say the old financial ledgers, so that we can help assets be able to move into this new open ledger world. So we’re creating this infrastructure that facilitates a way of being able to move these assets into a new environment.

Chad:
So we’ve done that in a number of different ways. One, we hold people’s conventional crypto, Bitcoin, or Ethereum, or whatever it might be. The next thing we do is we hold people’s cash, we can do cash management and we tokenize that cash and allow it to be put into any kind of blockchain environment. Then the last thing is we take real-world assets and put them into a blockchain environment. We’ve done that with gold, we’re doing it with US equities. There’s no real end to the size of real-world assets going to be put on the blockchain either.

Chad:
But well, it’s really clear to us is being able to help change cash is the foundational asset to facilitate this move into an open world because everything is moving against cash. Every transaction is cash. Every payment involves cash. Every transaction for services or goods, it’s all cash. So you need to really have that. Putting gold on a blockchain is fine, but if you’re moving dollars on a wire, what’s the point? Putting US equities on a blockchain is great, but you still got to move payments against it. How are we going to do that?

Chad:
So I think Paxos has taken this really unique approach because we went out and created the trust company. We’re regulated like a bank, but it’s actually safer. All of our assets are held for our customers in their names segregated. So even if anything happens to Paxos, our client’s assets are completely ring-fenced. That’s how infrastructure is set up in the US today. So we’re not doing anything completely novel from that perspective. What is novel is that we’re taking the client’s assets, we’re segregating them, and we’re putting into the blockchain. So we’re doing that in a regulated way where we’re regulated, as a trust company, but the asset itself, that we’re creating is also regulated. So we created a dollar stablecoin, that stablecoin was approved by our regulator. We created a gold back stablecoin, it was approved by a regulator. We had to put an application in and they approved it.

Chad:
We’ve also created a stablecoins for other firms, most notably by Binance and Huobi, the two largest exchanges in the world. That’s really kind of a white labeling model where we’ll run the infrastructure for these firms and they can have a stablecoin, it’s been regulatory approved and it now creates the ability for them to be able to have a cash relationship with our customers. Whereas before it might’ve only been a crypto relationship or not as truly effective a cash relationship. We can do this for all kinds of different firms. I think a lot of what 2019 was about was talking about stablecoins and still seeing stable coins being very useful, but in the crypto world, and I feel really confident saying that 2020 will be about stablecoins breaking outside of the crypto early adopter community into what I would call like kind of the broader usage in the world.

Chad:
You’ll see that in payments, you’ll see that in remittances, you’ll see it in FX trading. I know it’ll happen because we’re having so many of these conversations and they’re very, very serious ones. So I know a lot of firms are looking at how they can handle this. I think that was, at the end of the day, not because of Paxos creating a regulated stable coin, as much as I would like to give ourselves the credit for that. It’s because Libra really changed everyone’s idea of what they need to be thinking about, not that the technology didn’t exist before that, but they just take up so much of the space in which people are able to talk.

Bill:
Yeah. Well to me it seems like it’s a consumer application versus institutional, right? So if Facebook didn’t have 1.5 billion WhatsApp users, and 1.4 billion Instagram users, I don’t know what the numbers are, but something like that and an equal number of people on Facebook messenger, my guess is nobody would care because they would assume that it’s no different than any other company trying to play with technology, but once they do this, of course, they’re going to be the first bank, whatever that means with over a billion users very, very quickly, if they give it away. Again, we don’t know what that means, but time will tell.

Bill:
So a new question. So how do you guys actually make money in this whole stablecoin world, right? I mean, if a dollar is supposed to be a dollar and you’re trying to make it cheap to move dollars around, you mentioned Ethereum 15 cents, whatever, which, it sounds great, but it doesn’t sound like a potentially like a great way to make business on a per transaction basis. So what’s the business model behind these stablecoins?

Chad:
Yeah, well I think there’s a couple of components of this. First, we make money because we’re holding people’s dollars. We take those dollars and we’re generally holding them in a way that either they have FTC insurance or they’re held in T-bills so that’s US government risk. So we’re not taking any kind of credit risk with people’s money they’d given us, it’s actually safer than if you put it in a bank. We earn the interest from those assets that they’re held in, and then the customer can then move the cash around and have really great confidence that they’re using something that’s regulated, that’s truly backed and we’ll be able to be accepted anywhere with US dollars.

Chad:
Now we’re not earning a per-transaction fee. I agree that like the Ethereum network is cheap in some ways, it’s expensive and others. If you’re kind of making small consumer payments, it’s probably not as effective as is going to be needed for things to really scale. On the other hand, for any type of wire movements or other types of cross border movements, it’s significantly better. So I think the Ethereum network has an ambitious roadmap in terms of how it’s going to be able to improve to be able to be a much more functional blockchain.

Chad:
But Ethereum isn’t the only network that you could put a stablecoin on, and I don’t think that will be the only place you’ll see stablecoins. They’re going to start moving into other networks. Examples being like Stellar, or Ripple, or maybe Algorand, or whomever it might be, where you can really get low cost, high throughput. So clearly all the network effect is on Ethereum. Clearly it’s in the pole position, but it also clearly needs to continue to grow because it’s congested and at whatever it is, 17 transactions per second, that’s two orders of magnitude slower than Visa.

Chad:
It doesn’t mean you have to get the Visa levels, but you got to get at least one order of magnitude better than where you’re at, and it’s not really close to getting there. So stable coins will have to continue to adopt, and to push Ethereum. But if Ethereum doesn’t adapt, it’ll adapt somewhere else. I’m pretty confident that blockchain itself is here, whether it’s Ethereum that everyone’s going to be using in five years, that’s a big open question, and while they have the pole position, that’s not what’s going to be the ultimate determinant of the success of stable coins. It’s too valuable to have something on an open network. If Ethereum isn’t able to do it then something else will.

Bill:
Yeah. So it seems to me that if we get another CryptoKitties situation where everybody’s going nuts with, in theory, transactions that are worthless, we could easily get to a point where simple stable coin transactions are too expensive to do on-chain, which probably would have happened if we were in the same situation that we have now from a technology perspective. But with the 2017 kind of late, early 2018 volumes, whether it’s because of CryptoKitties, or ICOs, or who knows some combination of all those. Right?

Chad:
Yeah. I mean, I think we saw, for instance Tether move onto Ethereum, and that started to create some congestion within the network. They increased the size of the blocks in a relatively efficient and non-controversial way that helped to relieve some of the stress on the system. There was this whole concept of moving to Ethereum 2.0 which will hopefully really be able to increase the speeds. There’s a lot of work that’s being done, and this is not just necessarily in Ethereum, but in Bitcoin as well, for lightning networks and for a whole variety of ways to be able to increase speeds, side chains and a whole variety of things. So I think that if you tried to put the whole world on Ethereum today, it would clearly fail. You tried to put the old world and almost any blockchain right now will fail.

Chad:
But I don’t know if that’s a fair test because that’s not what we’re really talking about. Like we’re talking about what’s a five, or 10, or 15-year transition and-

Bill:
… adoption, really.

Chad:
Exactly. Exactly. You don’t need to solve that problem today. So it would kind of be a waste, right? Should you go out and try and make Ethereum at 20,000 transactions per second today? Would that be a good use of resources? Or are there other problems that need to be solved? So you’ve got to solve the right problem at the right time. So I think in some ways, it’s almost used as a stocking horse as a way to say, “This can’t happen,” whereas I think it’s inevitable that it will happen. There’s a lot of entrenched interests that clearly would be disrupted by this. So I feel like they try to revert the conversation back to speed because they’re not going to win on functionality.

Bill:
So in this vein of talking about problems that do matter, you guys chose gold as kind of the second tokenized asset after dollars, right? Why gold? Why do we need a stablecoin gold now? I mean, you could have chosen anything, oil, other commodities, real estate, but you focused on gold. Why gold?

Chad:
Well in some ways gold is a commodity, in some ways it’s money. Historically it’s been money. It’s not really used that way now, meaning it’s not — nobody denominates their books in gold, and no one’s really able to use it as a consumer payment. But it’s still held as a store of value for a lot of people, it has $8 trillion of market value. So it’s a big asset class. It is a stock asset, meaning that it’s not used for industrial purposes. It’s really used as an investment purpose. So that makes it a very good use case for being able to put on a blockchain because you can move it around. It’s completely fungible, but it has a lot of problems that a blockchain can solve. Some of the problems that gold has are the same problems any commodity has, which is if you actually have the physical assets, it’s not very easy to divide it and it’s not very easy to move it around and it’s not very easy for someone else to accept it.

Chad:
Whereas if it’s very tradable, very fungible, very divisible, and very liquid, it’s probably not the actual commodity. It’s probably some derivative. That’s exactly the case in gold, if you really want to be able to whip it around, you basically are trading an ETF, which is synthetic gold, or a futures contract. If you really want to hold something where you feel like you have ownership, or you want to be able to move it around in a physical way, it’s extremely cumbersome. But if you put gold on a blockchain, which is what we did, you take gold, it’s sitting in a vault in Brink’s, in London, we take the gold, we tokenize it. Every token that we take equals one ounce and it relates to the serial number of the bar in London. So you actually have ownership of real gold now, but you can send it to anybody 24 hours a day, seven days a week, instantaneously, low cost. It’s fully redeemable for the physical. You can go to other gold retailers and redeem it for physical gold if you want to and they’ll accept it.

Chad:
So we’ve actually, I think solved a lot of the limitations of gold. Part of the reason why it stopped being money is because it couldn’t really be very easily put into a digital form. That’s not the only reason, but that’s an important one. Now you’re able to solve that problem and you can now make it so that anybody in the world, again, with a smartphone, can actually own physical gold sitting in a London vault. So to us, that was a really logical thing to solve. It does allow you to solve institutional trading problems as well as retail ownership problems. I think we’ll clearly do more commodities over time, and potentially gold could very well end up being used because of this in a more transactional way.

Chad:
So for us, that was a really exciting way to take an asset and put it on a blockchain because I firmly believe there are $600 trillion of assets in the world. All of those assets are going to end up on a blockchain in the limit, give them far enough time horizon. That’s what’s going to happen. How do you get there from here? What is the right sequence of assets to put on? And what is that time horizon that it happens in? So I’m sure it’s going to take quite a long time to get to doing the last piece of real estate and some far off place. But generally, this is a giant database upgrade that’s happening in the world and gold is a very logical one to be able to do first.

Bill:
Yep. So let’s take a step back. First I want to talk about how many people are doing this before we get there. So the way this works is, if I’m Ray Dalio and I decided that, “Hey, I need to put a big chunk of my net worth in gold because doomsday is coming here,” and I want to do it through you guys. So basically, I open an account on Paxos, right? I wire a bunch of money, and you basically give me a window on my web browser that allows me to do a spot purchase of gold for my digital dollars. That’s more or less the way it works?

Chad:
Yes.

Bill:
Okay. So how many people are doing this? And are you guys actively kind of consumer marketing this? Or is it more of a trading thing for you now? I mean, what’s the plan for this?

Chad:
Yeah, I mean it’s a combination of things here. So one, it’s actively marketed. We have a range of different types of customers. You have retail who, say there’s a person that wants to be able to own gold. They might be in the US, they might not be in the US. Then you have, I’d say something like half or more of our customers are outside the US, and so I think gold is a universal asset. I’m not surprised to see that. That kind of mirrors our crypto customer base. Half or more of our customers are outside the US, and then there are institutions that are actually using it to settle institutional gold trades, today. They’re doing it in smaller amounts because we’re just working through how to be able to size this up, but they’re actually settling PAX dollars, and PAX gold, which is really exciting for us though. So you’re getting tokenized dollars, tokenize gold against institutional London gold trades.

Bill:
Again, the liquidity right now is obviously elsewhere. What’s the attraction for them, for those first movers, actual institutions I mean, to come into Paxos to do those trades that they were obviously, even though they may not have taken physical ownership of gold, they were able to do those transactions elsewhere. So what’s the attraction for them as first movers to come into you guys now?

Chad:
Well, and I think this is important, while there’s still limited liquidity in PAX gold, the token, if you come to Paxos, we’re able to trade into the London gold market. There’s practically no size limit to our ability to access liquidity. If someone came in and said they wanted to buy $25 million of gold from us, we can get that done very, very tight. $50 million, $100 million, the markets are so deep and so liquid during normal trading hours for stock gold, you can, you can buy $25-50 million up in a second. So while we only have $15 million of PAX gold that’s been tokenized, if someone wanted to come in and buy $25 million, it’s not like the market’s going to blow out because you’re talking about the global gold market, which is trading something like a couple hundred billion dollars a day. It’s just enormous. So like we’re not moving the market by creating it.

Chad:
So the only limitation is our ability to be able to go into that market and buy it. So we work with INTL in this case, which is a very large London gold broker and if someone sends us money, we can buy as much as they want. There’s no limit. So now the gold itself is building liquidity. So it was really cool this week, actually, sorry, I’m getting my weeks confused. It was last week. FTX just launched perpetual gold futures and quarterly gold futures of PAX gold. PAX gold’s been listed on Kraken. We have it on itBit. So there’s a number of places that’s been being added on exchanges regularly and across wallets regularly. So I feel really great that we’ll start to build up the liquidity pool of tokenized gold, and so that needs to grow. But the actual ability to turn gold into a tokenized gold with almost no slippage as of right now.

Bill:
Yeah. That’s awesome. So what’s next? So you’ve got the dollar product, you’ve got the gold product. What’s the next interesting tokenized product though or any other product that we see coming out of Paxos in 2020?

Chad:
Well I don’t want to kind of jump the gun too much, but this I know we’ve already talked about publicly. There will definitely be US equities. So we already have a no-action letter from the FCC that allows us to be able to settle real live, tape reported, US equities trades. I think that will probably happen next week, would be my guess? Early next week we’ll be able to publicly announced that we have two participants. We have three in total, but we have two participants that will be on the system first, settling real live US equities trades, tokenized dollars against tokenize US equities.

Chad:
That’s I think a huge milestone of being able to settle on a blockchain and it’ll be a private blockchain. It needs to be a private blockchain because like we were talking about, there’s no public blockchain that can handle all the US equities trades in the world. We got a private blockchain for those reasons, but that’s going to be a really big deal, really exciting for us. Another step along the way to putting real assets onto a blockchain. Then I know we’re going to do more commodities. I know we’re going to do more types of securities, but I don’t want to get too far ahead of the conversation that we’re able to execute internally. I know that we have something that’s really just a week or so away, and that’s going to be super exciting for us.

Bill:
Awesome. So I know we’re running out of time here and I could talk to you for hours, this is super fascinating. So I guess last question then, what do think is going to surprise people the most in crypto land in 2020?

Chad:
About how much it’s not going to be about crypto, which I think is the most exciting thing. So I mean when I say not about crypto, I mean we’re all a little bit still in our own circle, and having it break out into the broader world of being able to be used not for a crypto trading or crypto transactions, but for other things, is, I think the hope, of what we’re all in this for. So I think the most exciting thing would be how much the conversation shifts from a being about crypto to being about how it’s solving problems in the broader world.

Bill:
Yep. Fascinating. So I actually totally agree with you on that. I think we’re going to start to see kind of broad-based applications where crypto is hidden. The fact that it’s on blockchain and you’re using tokenize assets becomes more of a technology enabler, which is where it belongs. Right? I mean, if I’m looking to make money or use the banking system, I don’t care how it works, I just need to trust that it works. I think you guys are doing some amazing work in making that happen. So-

Chad:
Yeah, I completely agree with that by the way. Like I feel like, no one knows how their phone works, but it works, right? I mean, somebody knows, but most people don’t. Well, we’re sitting here in the blockchain world, so focused on all of these small things that if you’re going to get broad adoption can’t be the focus. It’s a little bit of an echo chamber that we’re all hoping to break out of, and I think we’re getting that critical mass now.

Bill:
Okay. I mean, if you worked in the early version of the credit card industry in the 70s people talked about acquirers and issuers, and all the things that no consumer would ever talk about today. They just swipe the card, or stick the card in the machine, or tap a card and it works. I think we’re in that kind of an early analogous state of having to talk about on-chain versus off-chain, and level one versus level two, Casper versus no Casper, proof of stake versus proof of work, and consumers don’t care obviously, most institutions don’t even care except to the extent that they can trust that it works. I think we’re ready for the next phase of what are the initial applications that are going to drive people who don’t care about the technology to actually use the technology?

Chad:
Oh, I completely agree with that. I mean, I remember dialing up to Freenet and there’s no web browser. Basically, we’re kind of at that stage. Where’s Netscape, where’s Netscape? That’s what we’re waiting for.

Bill:
Yeah, I could tell you the war stories we fought in those days of Netscape. By the way, I remember, I think you and I have known each other for going on six, six and a half years now. You guys actually, the public doesn’t know this, but we funded Abra, one of the first sources of funds we got actually was somebody transferring Bitcoin to their stock purchase via itBit, at the time. I remember having to go through the process of setting up the wallet and getting online to do it. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was one of the largest exchange movements at the time. I won’t embarrass who it was, but it was really cool. So I think-

Chad:
Well hopefully it’s not embarrassing for them because we all know Abra’s gone up, really-

Bill:
Yeah. Exactly. So no, it was awesome. I said, “This is the future.” So I think since then, each of our financings, we’ve had at least one investor, a fund via Bitcoin since then. So congratulations on the product success, I think the vision is fantastic, and I wish you guys nothing but ongoing success in 2020 and beyond. And please come back in a few months and tell us how it’s going. I think we have a huge audience here, people who are really passionate about this idea of tokenization and putting real-world assets into the kind of crypto/blockchain sphere. So what you guys are doing I think is a good bullseye for our audience, so they’d love to hear how it’s going in a few months.

Chad:
Bill, it’s been great talking with you. It’s probably been too long and I really love what you guys are doing at Abra, and I really appreciate being on it. I feel like I could talk to you for hours too. The echo chamber is a fun place to be, and there’s so much to learn.

Bill:
Awesome. So if people want to learn more about everything we talked about on the Paxos side, I assume just a paxos.com is the easiest place to go?

Chad:
Yeah, that’s exactly right. You go to paxos.com, you can see our different products. You can learn about how our PAX dollar product is set up, or you can go learn more about PAX gold. If there’s any questions, you can always email us as well.

Bill:
Okay, fantastic. So we’ll call it there. Chad Cascarilla, CEO, founder, Paxos, itBit. Thank you so much for joining us, it has been another fantastic episode of the Abra’s Money 3.0. Have a great day everyone, and we’ll see you soon on Money 3.0. Take care, everyone.

Chad:
Thanks a lot, Bill.

Bill:
All right, thank you.

This episode is the final show for this season of Abra Money 3.0. Be sure to stay tuned for more episodes in the future. And please let us know if you have any thoughts or ideas for future shows. Thanks again for listening

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